Monday, August 21, 2006

women in judaism (worlds longest post!)


I recently had an email discussion with orthoprax regarding women in Judaism. The emails were very lengthy (especially on my part – what a surprise!) but I wanted to paste part of the discussion here.

questions from orthoprax:

Can you please explain to me why girls aren't taught Gemara like boys are? Why is the subject matter deemed too much for the small minds of girls?

Why is there no such thing as a female rabbi or halachic decider? Are women incapable of being community leaders or understanding halacha well enough to be a poseket? Is a woman incapable of giving a d'var torah worth listening to?

How do you feel about the fact that a woman cannot be a witness in any sort of Halachic observance? What does that mean on a theoretical level? Women cannot be trusted to accurately recall events when called upon to do so?

You don't see it at all degrading to women when they have to walk through separate entrances to go into these super frum places? How about when these stores have certain hours for men and hours for women? How do you feel about the fact that in most frum shuls, the mechitzah is so positioned that women are way in the back - sometimes with as much as an entire physical wall blocking the view with only little windows to peak into the men's arena? What does that all say about women? That their bodies are such powerful sexual objects that men cannot think properly 'pure' thoughts when they are around?

Don't you see it as at all ironic how virtually every religious duty or activity (with a couple of exceptions) is lead by a man? And even those that can be done by women, if men are around, a man is assumed the responsibility of taking care of it. When's the last time you saw a woman lead a havdalah ceremony, for example? Have you ever seen a woman recite megillat esther for men? Women are stripped of the ability to be leaders. They even count less than a man as nine men and a thousand women still don't make a minyan. They are basically treated like children by Halacha. Now, there are certain benefits to being a 'child' - less responsibility is one of them, but it comes at the deep cost of not being considered a full adult.


my reply to his email:

The bulk of my answer revolves around two main ideas.
1- men and women are created with a different physical, mental, emotional and spiritual make up.
2- If you want to understand the way a system works, you need to analyze it according to the rules of that system. Applying rules, generalizations and thought processes of the secular world to understand the frum world (or vice versa) isn’t intellectually honest.

I believe that the secular world operates according to standards which are advantageous to males, and discriminate against women. Success is measured in terms of external power, and public recognition is highly rewarded and valued in secular society. Politicians, movie stars, famous athletes gain their fame and power through their ability to stand above the crowd and their public exposure. The torah, on the other hand teaches a different kind of power. In Judaism, strength is measured in terms of being able to shape and control one’s negative qualities. Honor is bestowed upon those who behave ethically, virtuously and have developed their character traits.
This is important because it shapes the way we value and acknowledge achievement.

According to the Torah perspective, women and men are created differently and therefore possess different strengths and weaknesses. Judaism is a system that teaches a spiritual path for each individual and because men and women are perceived differently, they are provided with different tools to achieve their spiritual goals and fulfilment.

The result of that perspective is that, having a public role is not viewed as a necessary means to achieving power or admiration. It is accepted that there are different channels that can lead to greatness and respect and that both men and women have the ability and potential to be valued for their respective achievements.

Everyone agrees that men and women are considerably different, in their physical, emotional and cognitive makeup. Applying the same rules and the same standards to both leads to discrimination to one of the two.

The sexism found in the secular society can be very subtle and that’s why people (and especially men) often get deceived into believing that it doesn’t exist. Women can “do” anything, they can be prime minister, they can be doctors, lawyers, wrestlers.. whatever they want. In an externally focused society women have achieved equality, they can be as publicly and externally powerful as any man (and if theyre lucky they may even get the same wages as a man). What this really means, however, is that women have been granted the opportunity to compete against men in their court, to be judged according to male standards, and to develop masculine strengths.

How is that equality?

Using the same standards on different populations is considered discriminatory. Men and women don’t compete against each other in sports for that exact reason. Men and women have a different physical makeup and we realize that it would be incredibly unfair to women to compete against men. A child who is mentally challenged can only thrive in an environment that respects and accommodates his strengths and weaknesses, and a child who displays greater intelligence can only thrive and reach his potential in an environment that promotes his abilities. Sticking either child in a regular class is cruel.

The torah promotes this understanding and encourages both men and women to develop their respective strengths and work on their own weaknesses. In the secular world, the default system operates according to masculine strengths and weaknesses.

Granting women real equality necessitates respecting and validating the strengths and weaknesses of women, it requires allowing women to develop and grow within their abilities and talents.

So what are women’s strengths?

Women tend to be more naturally skilled in their ability to be nurturers, to be intuitive, to view situations in a more holistic way. These are all strengths which are internal. Women are considered more insightful (binah). They have a stronger ability to understand matters from the inside, the capacity to see a person and understand their needs, to relate to people according to their needs.

Raising children and running a household are responsibilities and achievements which are in no way looked down upon in the Torah world (as they are in the secular world). On the contrary, the husband gets up and sings the praises of his wife on Friday night. He acknowledges her worth and her beauty. Being a full time mom is not seen as a second class occupation, its value in the Jewish community is respected and appreciated.

In a community-minded value system, raising and forming and shaping the future generation is regarded as much more commendable than pursuing selfish self actualization.

A woman’s power comes in her ability to create the minds and affect the values and ethics of people. It may not lead to public recognition or to financial gain but in a system where these achievements are not highly valued, it becomes irrelevant. Women are responsible for the internal development of their family members. They create their society by raising and facilitating the development of the members of their society.

The strength of women is also to actualize pure potential. Of course the most obvious manifestation of this is in the physical relationship between a man and woman where the male is responsible for providing the raw material and the woman is responsible for the development of that seed. A baby cannot be created without the active participation of both parties.

In the story of creation we see that woman is created from the rib of man – from an inner bone – that is also representative of the woman’s strength, her inner strength. Being more low key, more private, more internally focused is a strength of the woman (which can obviously not be valued in an externally focused society).

Women, by nature, are not as competitive and aggressive as men tend to be. They are less focused on external achievement and stature. This isn’t to say that there aren’t exceptions, but naturally a woman’s tendency is much less geared towards public approval and public exposure. She is much more relationship-oriented, and it is in that setting that her worth and achievements can be appreciated.

Women are also known to have better social skills, to be more cooperative and to do better on verbal tasks. All these qualities create a gender which is more communicative and more relationship focused. As opposed to leading the masses, the strengths of women emerge in their one-on-one connections

Women also have a greater ability at being receptive and responsive. Women usually show more empathy and mercy and are more prone towards conflict resolution and consensus. This comes from their more holistic perception of the world. Whereas men think in a more compartmentalized manner, women are more skilled at seeing the bigger picture. This ability also allows women to multitask and this of course is incredibly valuable in raising children and running a household.

Comparing the role of women in a torah based society to that of a secular society is nonsensical as the measuring tools are completely different. In a world where power is not necessarily tied to a public role, not having women in those positions in no way diminishes their worth, it simply is not relevant to the development and appreciation of women. Unfortunately, having grown up in a society that focuses on externals and values externally directed achievements, we sometimes lose track of the fact that jewish women are living by a different set of rules and standards. In the secular, externally focused society, the achievements of jewish women cannot be measured or recognized.

Both men and women have equal needs, desires and capabilities in connecting to G-d, but each gender requires a different system that best suits their strengths and weaknesses. Because the torah teaches a spiritual path, the mitzvot and the roles of each gender are custom made to facilitate spiritual growth.

The majority of the commandments apply equally to both genders, but there is a small percentage of laws and customs which is geared specifically to one gender or the other. This is where people have trouble accepting that the torah promotes equality of the sexes. As soon as people see a difference in treatment they consider it a weakness in the system, when in fact it is affording each group to develop its respective skills and reach self actualization.

For a woman raised in the secular world, this appreciation of her intuitive abilities is liberating. To finally be respected and appreciated for what comes naturally to her. To stop trying to compete in a man’s world, according to their terms, it is invaluable in developing a woman’s self esteem. The Torah gives women the permission to be women – and not to feel guilty, or less valued, or less appreciated – for their strengths and their weaknesses.

The torah teaches us a spiritual path to fulfillment, both on a personal level and on a cosmic level. Once we internalize that, is it easy to see that G-d created a different system for men and women to work in, one which takes into consideration their respective roles, capacities and weaknesses, one where each gender has a valuable contribution to make.

Can you please explain to me why girls aren't taught Gemara like boys are? Why is the subject matter deemed too much for the small minds of girls?

First of all its not forbidden for women to study gemara, but once you accept that women do not have a torah obligation to study torah, and once you appreciate the way a woman’s mind works, than learning gemara is not the best way for her to develop her relationship with hashem, its not the most conducive way to actualize herself.

Throughout history there have been women who have studied it, and who continue to, But, this is done in a more discreet way because it is accepted that this type of behaviour is not viewed as one that cultivate a woman’s natural skills.

I’ve also heard that another reason why women aren’t encouraged to study gemara is that that the study of it can be very combative and aggressive and this is not a quality that we want women to focus on and develop considering their strength in consensus seeking and community building. Men on the other hand have a more natural tendency towards aggressively and competition and this is a positive growth oriented outlet for them.

Why is there no such thing as a female rabbi or halachic decider? Are women incapable of being community leaders or understanding halacha well enough to be a poseket? Is a woman incapable of giving a d'var torah worth listening to?

If women don’t spend as much time and as much of their energy on studying torah, (primarily because they have other obligations), then how many poseks do you expect will emerge? Even among men, not every rabbi is a posek, it requires a higher level of learning and most women focus their energies elsewhere. As for being community leaders, that question becomes moot when you step out of the westernized – male focused- system where public exposure and external achievement are more valued than internal power and private achievement.
Here again there are exceptions, and there are women who desire more public exposure to develop but they prefer to find ways which are more compatible with their more feminine and more private nature (in women’s groups, or in smaller settings) (there are of course important exceptions, today Rebbetzin Jungreis speaks to thousands of people, runs a huge organization and is highly respected and valued in orthodox circles)

How do you feel about the fact that a woman cannot be a witness in any sort of Halachic observance? What does that mean on a theoretical level? Women cannot be trusted to accurately recall events when called upon to do so?

I don’t think anyone believes that women are so simple minded that they cant recall events, but the fact is that due to their ability to think holistically, and to think more empathetically, than yes their ability to recall facts can be affected. In a court of law, facts are what are required, not an understanding of the greater picture.
As for being a witness to halachic observance, I think women do that on a daily basis whether it’s in matters of kashrut, or taharat hamishpacha or any other observance that is related to the home. The most strictest rabbi will trust his wife 100% when it comes to those things – so obviously the issue is not with her trustworthiness, but simply with the role and recognition we, as westerners would like her to have.

You don't see it at all degrading to women when they have to walk through separate entrances to go into these super frum places? How about when these stores have certain hours for men and hours for women? How do you feel about the fact that in most frum shuls, the mechitzah is so positioned that women are way in the back - sometimes with as much as an entire physical wall blocking the view with only little windows to peak into the men's arena? What does that all say about women? That their bodies are such powerful sexual objects that men cannot think properly 'pure' thoughts when they are around?

You see it as women having to walk through separate entrances; but why not see it as men walking through separate entrances? Or better yet, why not take our western male focused bias out of it and see it as men and women walking through separate entrances? Stores that have separate hours do it to separate the genders, but not as a sign of sexism. In the torah perspective men and women are much more sensitive to their differences – and compatibilities- and so the system promotes a separation of the genders so as to avoid certain behaviours that can lead to de-sensitization.

As for the mechitzas, once again it brings us back to what the focus is. If you go to shul to connect to g-d, to develop your relationship with hashem, than, if youre a woman, it really makes no difference where you are situated, your avodat hashem is much more private. If youre a man it is much more dependent on the communal setting and communal activities. A womans service to g-d is different than that of a man and so it makes perfect sense that men have a more central, public and communal position in the synagogue – after all these are the abilities they need to develop.

You say – what does it say about a woman that her body is such a powerful sexual object that men cant think properly around her and I ask you, why is that such a difficult situation for you to accept? Once again, in a male focused frame of mind, its more advantageous to a man to take away a woman’s sexual power, to subjugate this ability, to take away her edge. But women know. Women know the power they have, so the torah simply acknowledges and validates what we intuitively know. A woman is an extremely sexual being, and this is not a negative thing. What it means however is that for men, who are externally focused, it is much easier for them to get blinded by a woman’s sexual exterior and not take the time or put the energy to dig deeper and appreciate and value a woman for her real (internal) worth. The fact that men cant think properly around women is a reflection of a male characteristic (to be externally focused), not a reflection of a woman’s worth.

Don't you see it as at all ironic how virtually every religious duty or activity (with a couple of exceptions) is lead by a man? And even those that can be done by women, if men are around, a man is assumed the responsibility of taking care of it. When's the last time you saw a woman lead a havdalah ceremony, for example? Have you ever seen a woman recite megillat esther for men? Women are stripped of the ability to be leaders. They even count less than a man as nine men and a thousand women still don't make a minyan. They are basically treated like children by Halacha. Now, there are certain benefits to being a 'child' - less responsibility is one of them, but it comes at the deep cost of not being considered a full adult.

The torah is a system of laws and rules that helps get above their nature and change themselves for the better. What this means is that the mitzvoth are tools which help us develop our strengths while diminishing our weaknesses. We have a natural tendency to be selfish and therefore the torah obligates us to give tzedaka, be kind, be generous. What this means is that depending on a gender’s characteristics, the mitzvoth that apply will be based on what ‘work’ needs to be done.

Women, by nature, are more internally focused, pray better and build a connection to g-d thru personal prayer. I grew up around women (secular) who were constantly speaking to g-d. This is how families are raised by the mothers I know. Women are relationship-focused and have much better skills at developing and maintaining relationships and so their communication with g-d is much less regimented than that of men. Women intuitively understand how to communicate with g-d (as well as with those around them). Men on the other hand are team players, men need more guidance in building that relationship, in developing the communicative part of their connection to hashem and so it is more strictly controlled and they are required to pray in a minyan, three times a day, following a siddur. Men get together when they have a reason, women are more communicative, more communal and will congregate naturally. So women can go to shul, but praying in a minyan isnt particularly advantageous to women’s spiritual growth. Men on the other hand do need a reason and an obligation to pray in a minyan in order to help them develop that skill.

You compare women to children because of their reduced involvement and leadership roles in public communal activities, but by now I think its clear to see how the appeal and the value that these roles/ activities carry with them are based on a set of values that is foreign to the torah. The standards you consider as “adult like ” and “child like” don’t apply in a torah based system, they are based on a male oriented, hierarchical, externally focused system. If the whole point of the torah and the goal of a torah jew is to grow spiritually – on a personal and universal level- than these activities are just not necessary for a woman’s development. Those aren’t the strengths she needs or desires to develop. A woman is exempt from time bound mitzcvahs because her approach is one of constant readiness or adaptability to being able to continually respond to changing realities. Women have a more innate ability to create structures and so have less of a requirement for externally based frameworks.

Now one last thing, most of the questions you asked are not based on activities that are forbidden from women (they can read the megila, do havdala, study gemara…) but that they are not obligated to. In the torah perspective, where one’s focus is based on spiritual development, the torah is used as a priority setting guide. It is understood that if women don’t have an obligation to perform certain mitzvot, than there’s a good chance that they are not required for her development. Nonetheless because we are each created as individuals with individual strengths and weaknesses, there are members or each gender that will require or desire more participation in the other gender’s activities. This is acceptable as long as the frame of mind is correct. That means that if a person can say that they have exhausted their ability to fulfil the commandments and the path that have been set out for that gender and they now seek more, to tap other strengths or weaknesses, than that is more often than not acceptable. If however a woman is tempted by what is prescribed for men, purely to make a statement, to prove that she can do what men do, than that is not acceptable, and is deemed sexist Its sexist to place more emphasis on the abilities and the spiritual path of one gender over the other. Instead of appreciating and respecting her own role, her own spiritual path, she views man’s role as more valuable, and ends up devaluating her own prescribed path.All that being said, I will say one more thing. I will not deny that there are sexist people, communities, rabbis… im not naïve and im not blind. However, the torah in itself, as a system of beliefs and values is not sexist. It is, in my eyes, the opposite of sexist; it provides each gender with a spiritual path that is best suited for it. It respects the contribution of both genders, and it values the natural abilities and tendencies of both genders.

His reply to my email, with my reply to his.

First, I think you far overestimate the differences between men and women and how each's strengths can best be cultivated. Women would not benefit from participating in ordered and regular worship services because of their inherent intuitive personal relationship with God? Come on. Do you really accept that?

i dont think anyone has yet been able to quantify the differences, not even scientifically, its still very much under study. so yes in my opinion, and according to my experiences.. as a woman, this is how i see the differences.

also i never said women have an inherent intuitive personal relationship with g-d - i think thats the typical answer ive heard in the past and no i dont buy that.
what i did say is that women have a greater facility at developing relationships and women have better social and comunication skills and this plays a big part in how they connect to g-d. i dont think that by default they have a better r/s with g-d, but i think they have a greater ability to develop one and therefore less of a need of regulating how to go about it.

I would also like to point out that a far better system for realizing each individual's spiritual and general qualities would be done simply on an individual level.

so says orthoprax
i follow the torah that i beleive was handed over to us by g-d and i prefer to follow the spiritual path that i beleive g-d gave us. i respect your choice in not beleiving in that system and i respect your choice in not beleive it is divine, and therefore your choice to create your own path .. but thats not my beleif.

i beleive that the tiniest detail in the torah is there to help us develop our r/s with g-d. and i do beleive that THIS is a better system.. but thats just my beleif - not much to discuss here..
unless you want to get into the veracity of the torah and the authenticity of the transmission..
and no.. i dont want to get into that :)

Some women, I am sure, would greatly appreciate being involved in many of the things that they are now excluded from (either by Halacha, society, or convention). And conversely, I'd bet that some men find their numerous obligations to hamper their best spiritual efforts. Why divide by gender when there are so many natural exceptions?

i think the exceptions are way fewer than we think. and i think we think there are more exceptions than there are because of the androgenous perspective we have in secular society.

Wouldn't it be far better to have a system that allows people to be engaged in whatever they feel most fulfilling as far as they are willing to go?

thats called reform judaism..

This would allow for individually-planned religious lives that would best serve each person on an individual basis.

A 'Torah society' that focuses on internal development rather than external power is a beautiful thing, but creating this gender divide to force 'proper' gender development is backwards. You shouldn't be arguing for a "women's sector" of religious life that allows women to develop their own powers outside of a male-focused society, but a non-judgemental society that allows each individual to develop themselves to the best of their abilities with no attention paid towards the person's 'proper' gender role.

when the secular world will achieve that, then we can rediscuss judaisms view, but as of now, secular soceity has failed in my eyes and this is the best system i have found in creating a non judgemental society that allows individuals to develop to the best of their abilities.

Women shouldn't have to 'escape' the male-world and those so-called "male standards" that rule it, but should find their own standards equally represented on the public stage.

isnt that what i said? :)
i think you just dont like our standards.. you see them through male eyes and denigrate them. THIS is my point. i happen to be incredibly proud of my feminine abilities and powers and strengths, you just dont see them as equal to yours..

The only reason I can see then for encouraging the gender divide, is not for protecting individual spiritual development, but for keeping the social status quo and all that entails. This then leads me to my second point.

theres really no way to argue out of this. i can keep saying your system is biased to women and you are convincing ureselves its not and you can keep saying my system is biased against women and we are covincing ourselves its not..
thats argument goes both ways..

If you look back on history, or even any modern society where discrimination exists, there are always endless apologetics posited to justify that discrimination. In fact, taking your basic thesis that women have a different approach to spirituality than men, you can then justify _any_ restriction on women. You can fit virtually any offense towards women and make it seem that it's for their own good.

Whether it's burkahs on women or keeping women from driving cars or keeping them from voting or keeping them from entering the business world, all of these can be justified by an argument ensuring women that it's for their own good.


"I don’t think anyone believes that women are so simple minded that they cant recall events, but the fact is that due to their ability to think holistically, and to think more empathetically, than yes their ability to recall facts can be affected."

I really can't believe you said this. You really believe that men are better suited to recalling factual events than women?

without a doubt
maybe im just not a factual type of person and maybe i pride myself on my more holisitc perception and assume all women are like me
or maybe youre a very factual thinker and assume everyone is like you. without a doubt i beleive there is a difference in this between men and women and i clearly see how this would impact the ability to being a credible witness.
is it fair? not necessarily? but there are lots of things that arent fair. im not a cohen, and ill never be cohen gadol.. look at how many mitzvahs ill never get to perform.. totally unfair! will you ever give birth? so unfair.. thats the way the system goes. i have no problem accepting that. i dont need to do the same and be the same to be equal

Seriously. How can I trust women with such an important power as the VOTE when their power to recall events are so much poorer than men? Would you ever accept such an argument to restrict your power to testify in secular court? I think not!

"If women don’t spend as much time and as much of their energy on studying torah, (primarily because they have other obligations), then how many poseks do you expect will emerge?"


That's really not the point. The point is that even if a women held the requisite skills to be a poseket, I contend that she would never be able to exercise those skills within the contemporary community standards.

ive heard of some in some commuities. and i think it will become more popular and more accepted,. don forget that poele are poeple and eventho the torah may have allowed soemthing, but if it wasnt accepted in general society theres a good chance it would affect torah society too.
women werent judges until very recently
yet in the torah...there were exceptions

No one would see her opinion as authoritative and very few people would feel comfortable saying they act a certain way because they follow the ruling of Poseket XYZ.



"You see it as women having to walk through separate entrances; but why not see it as men walking through seprate entrances" Because it was men who made these separate entrances in the first place. This kind of thing is rarely, if ever, initiated by women. In the 1950s when there were 'White' and 'Colored' drinking fountains, nobody looked at the whites as being the victims of discrimination.

youre right but thats not the way its percieved in the torah world.
you come in with your secular mindthink and you see seperate entrances and you assume - stronger group has decided for weaker group.
i come to seperate entrances and i think - two equal groups have been sperated to prevent the desensitization of eachother.
our perspectives are different
and therefore our realities are different.
and youre right, men did set these up..but just because a man decides something regarding a woman (or vice versa) deoesnt necessarily imply that its discrimnatory,

To finish off, I'd like you to recognize how in human society it is basically a universal maxim that those in power like to stay in power. Men have ruled Jewish society for nearly as long as Judaism has existed. Do you believe it was by some coincidence that the male Rabbinate gave us a society with such male superiority?

we're back to the original point, if you beleive n the divine oral law than your question is moot. if you dont than ure point is 100% valid.

The point about women's liberation was that women had the choice to do what they willed without being held back because of their gender. They could fulfill their 'female development' to the best of their abilities or they could enter the wider world and engage in pursuits formerly restricted only to men. The point is the choice.

and thats amazing - in an ideal setting- when we start from scratch and there is no default system.
that isnt the case
and fulfilling female development in a mans world is not an option
and if you beleive it is
youre probably not a woman.

Do you believe that the very existence of this option harms women? Women who are moved to do so, can now engage the world entire without being restricted just to the women's sphere. That you personally find deep spiritual fulfillment by living a traditional woman's life in the kitchen (while barefoot and pregnant, I might add) is your own business and I wish you good fortune, but you shouldn't be using such fulfillment as reasons to hold other women back.

i can use the same argument back, if you personally find deep spiritual fulfillment in being a rabbi or a posek or watever other "man" task and dont understand why i wouldnt want the same, thats your business, but you shouldnt pressure me to want the same.
just LOOk at the tone you use when you describe a typical female role, and you expect me to feel accepted and valued and appreciated??

i say - a woman in the torah world is valued and appreciated for being a woman in the traditional sense you say - oh you can be that barefoot and pregnant woman if THATS ALL you aspire to, but if you want to be really valued, come compete against me according to my standards of success

and you expect this argument to convince me that the society u speak of is not sexist???

Contemporary Orthodoxy does not let women control their own destiny or the direction of the Jewish people on a communal level.

i very much disagree
i believe its in the small details that the real changes happen
women form human beings
human brings form communities

The issue is power. It's great and all to say that you don't care about power but about personal development, but why should you be holding back those women who have different interests than you or who feel more personally developed by going outside of traditional gender roles?

that question doesnt make sense. any woman who wants to live a torah life and who beleives that the ultimate reason for existence is to follow a spiritual path to build a relationship with G-d will care abvout that and not about power.
if someone prefers "power" they can follow any other branch of judaism or leave judaism behind..
we have free choice..

UPDATE:
and in case this post wasnt enough to read - here is interesting news (thanks to the few of you who sent this to me)
An Orthodox Jewish Woman and Spiritual Leader.
Im not sure if this article was sent to me to support or disagree with my post. I have no doubts women are as capable as men, I just think its a matter of where one wants to direct her energy, and how she chooses to connect to G-d. I have complete confidence in diversity within a Torah framework, and as long as the halacha is being upheld, I see no contradiction between this article and my point of view. it isnt a matter of what a woman can do, its a matter of what she wants to do, and i beleive this is an exception. im glad there is room for it in my understanding of torah, but im even more glad that it isnt the norm and that women, and their daughters, dont need to feel pressured by it.

31 Comments:

At Monday, August 21, 2006 10:00:00 PM, Blogger Limey2001 said...

wow i'm not gonna even try to read it
Mooks as always you're right on!!

 
At Monday, August 21, 2006 10:31:00 PM, Blogger Lvnsm27 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Monday, August 21, 2006 10:56:00 PM, Blogger Lvnsm27 said...

wow, that was amazing!

True, sometimes people look at the surfice and when they see that men have more mitzvot than women, they think it's unfair. What they don't realize is how huge the woman's mitzvot are. For ex, preparing and bringing in the entire shabbos, family purity & mikva which brings blessings to the home, and raising the next generation which is a huge thing.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 1:07:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If youre a man it is much more dependent on the communal setting and communal activities

not true. i'm female and i go to shul on shabbos just to check out the guys and watch them daven.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 1:17:00 AM, Blogger Maven said...

i just wrote a little post on my bloggy-blog about gender roles, altho i did not write (at length) about the issues in the frum velt.

the truth is, women run the show in judaism. for all the things men do, it's still our party. we're the aishes chayils, we are the forces to be reckoned with.

when moshiach comes it will be all the more obvious.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 2:07:00 AM, Blogger Dovid said...

Woah!! I know I promised but this is way too long for this time of the morning... Hopefully tomorrow I'll crack this one.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 7:09:00 AM, Blogger Pragmatician said...

I'm going to read that one, only not now.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 10:47:00 AM, Blogger Scraps said...

Wow. You weren't kidding when you said that this would be the longest post ever.

I have to say, I agree with you on most points--I do not feel oppressed, or repressed, by Judaism. I could do without the mechitzas that are really walls and probably negate my attempt at tefillah b'tzibbur, but otherwise I'm with you. Your points are well-expressed, and I can tell you put a lot of thought into your words.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:10:00 AM, Blogger Limey2001 said...

"that this really means, however, is that women have been granted the opportunity to compete against men in their court, to be judged according to male standards, and to develop masculine strengths."

Mooks i read it.... that one line sums up the whole world nowadays

Our fav rabbi would LOVE to read this!!!!!

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:27:00 AM, Blogger Pragmatician said...

Phew, no need to buy books anymore:)

You answers are very eloquent, and I'm impressed how you managed to avoid popular apologetics.
This was very interesting to me as although I'm basically religious I still struggle with similar questions.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 12:15:00 PM, Blogger socialworker/frustrated mom said...

Very extensive, great responses.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 3:54:00 PM, Blogger wandering said...

Great Post. Long, but definitely worth it ;).
Two points of interest- forgive me if it was mentioned somewhere in that long post, I might have skipped it over...
1. The Lubavitcher Rebbe actually encouraged women of this generation to study Gemara.
2. Like maven mentioned, in chassidic philosophy the women are compared to the moon. The moon may appear to be outshone by the sun, but when Moshiach comes, the moon will actually gain the upperhand and outshine the sun. The women too, will be fully recognized as the true stronghold of Judaism when Moshiach comes.

 
At Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:54:00 PM, Anonymous malka said...

""it isnt a matter of what a woman can do, its a matter of what she wants to do"" And may I add, what she should do.
The article you link to looks okay because that lady is not trying to be something she shouldn't be but rather something that's within Jewish law. Which is good because however a woman chooses to connect to G-d, she should do it how G-d wants and follow the law instead of how she wants. Otherwise she's really serving herself. I commend that lady in the article for realizing this point.

 
At Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:30:00 AM, Blogger anonym00kie said...

i cant beleive any of you guys actually read through this.. wow, im impressed :)

thanks for all your comments..

malka: i completely agree, thats why i added the link

wandering: surprisingly i didnt mention it anywhere in that LONG post, so thanks!

scraps: i hear that..but ill tell u id much rather have a wall seperating me, than standing a foot away from a guy with a waist high mechitza.. so unpleasant.

pragmatician: i think its good to keep questioning and searching. once you stop.. you start sliding back..

maven: nice mowhak :)

lvnsm27: 'huge thing' is an understatement.. i agree

limey: he would, wouldnt he? :) well maybe the abridged version..

 
At Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:52:00 PM, Blogger Scraps said...

Okay, I'm with you on that one. When I have to daven in a shul with a mechitza like that, I try to sit as far in the back/to the side as possible.

 
At Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:10:00 PM, Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Hey Mooks...
Great job...
The thing I really dont get..is..
The reason of religion the whole reason why a person is religious is because u realize theres a higher being and you want to serve God..Because his word is the truth..so what a difference How you do it?
Whats a difference if God wants you to do lesser tasks or greater tasks..Its a privelege to serve him no matter what.

Do you hear me complaining that I'm not a Kohen and have so many less mitzvos?

 
At Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:28:00 PM, Blogger trixies86 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Thursday, August 24, 2006 10:14:00 PM, Blogger Nemo said...

Wow, just finished reading through {finallyy} and it gave me a bit of clarity. It's definitely refreshing to hear a woman's point of view. The thing is that the women know and feel all of this, but it's not being taught to the boys in Yeshiva. Takes us back to the whole concept of different paths.

I think that the main jist of all this takes us back to the question of faith. Do we believe that the Torah as a path, despite our modern day societal prejudices, is the correct way to fulfillment? If we do, then let our focus be on our fulfillment and not worry about that which we weren't meant to do.

 
At Thursday, August 24, 2006 11:15:00 PM, Blogger anonym00kie said...

david_on_the_lake: easier said than done.. everyone wants to be a fighter, no one wants to be the jobnik..
my point is that its not about being a fighter vs a jobnik, its about beign a paratrooper vs intelligence :)

nemo:
thats exactly my point..
i refuse to be manipulated into feeling bad about my avodat hashem because of societal pressure that clearly disadvantages me

 
At Thursday, August 24, 2006 11:16:00 PM, Blogger anonym00kie said...

IM AN ORTHODOX JEWISH WOMAN AND I LOVE IT...

deal with it :)

 
At Friday, August 25, 2006 2:02:00 AM, Blogger ~ Sarah ~ said...

i haven't yet had time this week to read such a long post... hopefully after shabbat sometime... looks interesting!

shabbat shalom :)

 
At Friday, August 25, 2006 1:55:00 PM, Blogger Lady-Light said...

'm00kie, this is a very important post; I have so much to say on this subject. also posted about this a bit(May 11,2006).
I agree with both you, 'm00kie and Orthoprax. Too involved to go into it here...David, yes-you serve G-d the way He wants us to; the question here is, are these differences in mitzvot for women and men from Hashem, or formulated by men? Many of these are NOT in the 'Torah sheh-bikhtav', but rather in the Torah sheh-be'alpeh, which Orthodox Judaism believes is mi-pi Hashem. That is a good way to keep society intact and viable over the years. -Or were they thought out and written by men, (perhaps thought to be 'divinely inspired'?) And 'separate entrances' aren't written about anywhere - that, like many things we view as "law", are syagim la-Torah. You can take this to extremes: in many communities young men cross the street if a woman is on their sidewalk. Buses with 'mechitzahs'; Haredim do not talk to women, let alone acknowledge a women's presence in the room. So where do you draw the line? There are many community-cultural differences. Don't get me wrong - I love Orthodox Judaism; it has held Am Yisrael together for millenia; but there is a caveat here: one studies, one thinks, and one questions...and one should not be villified (or called an "apikores")for it. Judaism is strong, but flexible. That is why is doesn't break.

 
At Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:37:00 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

I just want to get a cover on everybody here, do you all really accept the idea that women are biologically worse recallers of information than men? And that's why they cannot be Halachic witnesses?

And if you agree with that, why would you accept that women can be witnesses in secular court or vote in elections?

 
At Sunday, August 27, 2006 4:26:00 PM, Anonymous s said...

voting is different.

 
At Sunday, August 27, 2006 7:28:00 PM, Blogger anonym00kie said...

orthoprax how come youre more bothered by me saying that women are worse recallers of facts than by me saying that men are less "bigger picture"/holistic type thinkers?

 
At Sunday, August 27, 2006 8:09:00 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Mooks,

I'm not "bothered" by it. It's simply that such a statement has a huge logical hole in it.

It doesn't even matter if you think that women or men think differently or worse or better than the other, it's that you think such differences in thinking justify the exclusion of legal rights.

And then on top of that you've selectively applied the principle only to religious courts but don't recognize the very same principle for secular courts.

 
At Sunday, August 27, 2006 8:11:00 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

S,

"voting is different."

I could argue with that, but I don't much care to.

Nu? What do you have to say about secular courts?

 
At Monday, August 28, 2006 7:43:00 AM, Blogger Miri said...

I didn't have time to read through the whole thing, but I would like to make several comments...
1)I thoroughly agree with the idea that women aren't denied leadsership in the frum community simply bc they are not Rabbanim. the truth of the matter is, the so called "leadership roles" in most Jewish communities are more like figureheads while the actual leadership is performed by the women; most tzedaka orginizations, fundraising, any sort of movement or activity in the community and especially in the school systems, tend to be largely run by women. even when these hings have a Rabbi heading them officially, it tends to be the women of the community who do most of the work and are responsible for most of the result. thus, redefining the idea of leadership a bit...I would call leadership within the Orthodox community that which actually causes things to happen, rather than those that stand at the head of a congregation and talks for a half hr. of which most of the people in the audience will not be able to recall.
2)while I agree with much of what you say abt men and women having different strengths and weaknesses, I do find it disturbing that you generalize a little too much. it's true that the Orthodox Torah community is supposed to be built out of individuals each with their own talents, but really, the tendency of orthodox communites has become to factory-ize everyone into following more or less the same path, perhaps bc they haven't the resources to deal with idividualism, perhaps bc they have grown afraid of it. I think it is this tendency which most endangers the Orthodox community at this time, bc if we sacrifice our individuals and our individuality, we haven't got a religion, we've got a cult.

 
At Monday, August 28, 2006 4:23:00 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Miri,

"even when these hings have a Rabbi heading them officially, it tends to be the women of the community who do most of the work and are responsible for most of the result."

That's not called leadership, that's called doing the dirty work. At the end of the day who gets the credit?

"if we sacrifice our individuals and our individuality, we haven't got a religion, we've got a cult."

Agreed.

 
At Tuesday, August 29, 2006 1:16:00 AM, Blogger FrumGirl said...

Well... I finally got around to reading this much anticipated post. You should be proud, I never am on this late blogging
:-)

Mookie you do a great job answering Orthoprax issue by issue. I am very moved by your answers. It is what I was taught from a young age. It is quite beautiful. And it is very idealistic. I mostly agree with your take on this, but you assume that all orthodox jews are as spiritual and genuine as you are. Unfortunately... that is not the case. Sure, you write that little disclaimer pointing out how you know not every Rabbi has this perspective etc, etc, etc. But let me tell you something... and I am speaking generally... what you write here is not how these issues are taught to the orthodox men; this is how it is taught to the orthodox ladies to accept it. And that is what I take offense to. I am not bitter about it... I LOVE yiddishkeit. But since it was brought up I wont stay quiet about it either.

Perhaps the question Orthoprax really should have asked is not in reference to why we are not given equal tasks... of that I hold no issue. What I object to is why the yeshiva boys of chassidish and litvish orient are taught to look at women negatively... as sinful. They are not taught about this beautiful way of spiritual growth, of realized potential... they are taught it is their right as MAN "have the last word in the house", to dominate, to look down. And it is a womans place to be obedient. I know this because the guys themselves have told me.

And they told me they never knew a girl could think like you or I do... and why do they say that... why are they so surprised? Because they were taught to believe it! And due to our expected "role" there are very few girls out there who can prove them wrong properly. And fewer girls realize their own potential because they were never given a chance.

And *that* is what I find to be distateful in orthodoxy. If what they taught us (girls) to accept was taught the same way to the boys... so that that they too can appreciate our roles and their own... then I would be ok about it... and there wouldnt be this misogynist flavor to orthodoxy.

And what I think the truth is... Was it Hashem will or is it man that perpetuates this? I say man. The Torah is pure. But the medrash says 'Lo Bashamayim He" and so I accept.

 
At Thursday, September 07, 2006 8:08:00 AM, Blogger Miri said...

orthoprax- it would sound like doing the dirty work, except that everyone knows who really deserves all the credit; and they usually are thanked publicly, too. I think it's more akin to the grand vizier pulling all the strings behind the puppet sultan's actions and decisions than Cinderella being forced to wash the floors. personally.
frumgirl- not all Jewish boys are taught to look down on women. I think it's a specialty of the black hat world. in many of the post high-school yeshivot in Israel, they do now teach guys that same perspective - that women have their own way of worshipping G-d, and that they need to be respected and appreciated. (maybe more in the MO yeshivot?)one does have to wonder why that sort of a perspective would wait until post high school to be taught, however.

 

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